Draft proposal of Vision, Mission and Constitution

[BillyTeo]

cyk said:

Hi TY,
I dont mind being caught fishing illegally if no waters are given to us but I'll certainly not fish any illegal spots if we have a spot for us.

Thank you CY.

Exactly what I will do too.
In fact it is exactly what quite a few of us will do too,
from the feedbacks I had received.

I have to admit that my england is not very understanding
and I have talk too much to eloborate a point sometimes missing it altogether.

[BillyTeo]

Are we UNREASONABLE PEOPLE, we the fly fishermen?

The world changed for the better because of unreasonable people who is not satisfied with what they have
and who does not want to conform to what others want them to have.

Many years ago, when I was just a kid, I think around 1960s or something.
I heard my father's friends talk at the Singapore River.
My father was helping uncle as a bum boatman.
The gahmen had wanted to clean up the river.
Back then the place was smelly, dirty and unliveable.

But an unreasonable guy by the name of Lee Kuan Yew
decided to clean up the place.
There was big hoohaa and a lot of petitions were written and submitted but to no avail.
The warehouses and the bumboats all got to move to clean up the river.
My uncle say he will cut off his cock if they can clean it up.
(No he passed away before the river was clean up so he got his organ with him when he moved on)

Today the place is sparkling.
Next year the place will be fresh water.
Fresh drinking water for our survival.

Our demands to have a decent place to fly fish and
a club to get the same minded people together,
so that we can do something for the fishing stock
in our reservoirs for the future generation may seem unreasonable.

If everyone of us is a reasonable guy and conform to
everything that the gahmen threw at us, would the future
of Singapore improve at all?

The whole world is indebted to the UNREASONABLE people.
Without them the world would not have improved so QUICKLY.

Are we unreasonable to ask for a place to fly fish?
Are we unreasonable to ask that the rules be changed for us?
Are we unreasonable to ask for assistance from the law maker so that we can do something for the reservoirs?

Yes, our demands are unreasonable to a lot of people.
We even have people saying we are going against the gahmen.

But 10 years down the road, we if can make the ministers and
the law makers sit up and look at us in the eyes,
and they decided to let us have abit of space for our sport,
then we would have achieve something isn't it.

Many donkey years ago,
there was this mad doctor who cut up corpses
to find out how people dies and learn from the dead body
things he cannot learn from a living body.
He was despised and the law was not on his side.
Illegal ........... was what he was doing.
But he did it anyway.
He was unreasonably committing an offence against the law.
The law was changed when they saw the benefits it brought from cutting up and studying dead bodies.

The members of our club knew it was illegal to fish at nz river.
We did it anyway.
Will they change it for us?


When my uncle say lky was unreasonable,
he didn't get to see the clean river.
When the doctor was convicted,
he too didn't get to see what the modern doctor are doing today.

We too will never get to see the reservoirs open up for the future generations.
But what the hack, we're unreasonble s.o.a.g,
and we're going to be unreasonable until we get what we want
(even if we don't get to see it.)

Because we felt it was the right thing to do.

Or should we conform to what the PUB throw at us.
Then they don't need us at all because they already have the SFAS conforming to whatever they say to them.
A rubber stamp for the PUB guy to show the ministers.

[ShadowCaster]

billyteo said:

cyk said:

Hi TY,
I dont mind being caught fishing illegally if no waters are given to us but I'll certainly not fish any illegal spots if we have a spot for us.

Thank you CY.

Exactly what I will do too.
In fact it is exactly what quite a few of us will do too,
from the feedbacks I had received.

I think while any individual may choose to act accordingly as one see fit and face the consequences if neccessary, we need to be careful not to place our Association in being into a position where no official agencies would want to be associated with. It'll not do us any good.

Its a fine, and sometime invisible line. we need to distinguish the difference between individual choice and the choice of the collective community of fly fishers.

[Chee Yung]

Hi All,

TY,
I'd keep to writing my daydream stuff as you are doing a great job as it is . However, I will take up your challenge and propose some editing if necessary.

TY, you mentioned 'room for maneuvre' ... that is exactly what I think we should look for. There is no point taking the moral highground when no one is giving us any ground to even exist. Our ground for maneuvre is our request to exist as a accepted club. A club that has rules for safety and proper control internally. Just like the 'woodball club', we need a place to practice and perpetuate safely... therein lies the need to our own water.

Again, IMHO, we should present the constitution with a mission to exist. And this does not mean a casting field but a place to actually flyfish.

Once we have this assurance, we will stop fishing illegally because the truth is no one will join the club when there is no water to fish. Okay, maybe just a few of us fools will play goody for a few months but that's it. The rest will only hop in when the going gets good. I volunteer to be among the fools but we cannot control the rest who can undo this image by just being out of the club and flyfishing illegally.

My other 2 cents.

BT, I dont believe we need to wave red flags to prove a point... thats not the Singapore way. We should just strive to exist because we believe flyfishing is a good thing.

Thanks for the passion tho... we need it!

My final 2 bits...

Moving forward we should put in place 'Implementation Plan 1'

1) Form buddy and flyfishing safety system
2) Prepare Club ID and identification list
3) Meet with NParks and PUB for road show
4) Proposed water to adopt

Learning for the LSR canoe accident episode, we should show that we know safety. We should then show that we can police ourselves. Finally we should propose a piece of water where PUB & Nparks know who we are and how we practise our hobby.

For example. say we adopt NZ, we should have our safety system put up, have the PUB/Nparks roadshow, volunteer to prepare a sign ' this water is for flyfishing only under these rules:.... A community project by CC PUB & Nparks ', volunteer to contact PUB when we fish, prepare to start improving the water like clearing grass and cleaning up, etc.

What say you?

Cheers
CY

[BillyTeo]

cyk said:

Hi All,
A club that has rules for safety and proper control internally. Just like the 'woodball club', we need a place to practice and perpetuate safely... therein lies the need to our own water.

Again, IMHO, we should present the constitution with a mission to exist. And this does not mean a casting field but a place to actually flyfish.

Once we have this assurance, we will stop fishing illegally because the truth is no one will join the club when there is no water to fish.

Totally agree with with CY.

Those who join a fishing club which cannot fish probably have other ulterior motives.
Do we really need these type of members for the club?

But of course joining a fishing club which cannot fish will be another joke of the town, right?

cyk said:

Hi All,
Okay, maybe just a few of us fools will play goody for a few months but that's it. The rest will only hop in when the going gets good. I volunteer to be among the fools but we cannot control the rest who can undo this image by just being out of the club and flyfishing illegally.

Yes CY.
Most of us will be the fools, me too.

But even after the successful formation of the club
and after successfully getting a little place to fly fish legally,
there will still be people who will chiong the other places to fish.

Thence a Licence To Fly Fish would be a better objective for our club.

[BillyTeo]

I think a lot of us want to fish in different spots every once in a while.
We get bored fishing the same place every weeeeeek.

So chionging other spots to fish will break the club rules
and will tarnish the name of the club if they are members.

So according to the rules, they well be expelled from the club.
Will it work?

The PUB and NParks and the gahmen have the law against illegal fly fishing too.
A lot of members from this yet to form club don't even give two hoots about it.
Do you think we can tie down these runaway members with the club rules?

So the club expell these chionging members.
Sometimes a member go into the forested are to do some of his own
research and was seen by another member.
He is also expelled.
Very soon. (means with a year or 2)
We will not have any members left.
Maybe a few core members who will administer the club.
(Sounds familiar??)
These few will be the club committee members.

...........and dah dah.............
we have a club without members.

Let me think, have I heard this before.
Hmmmmmmmmm.... a club without members?

[BillyTeo]

shadowcaster said:

I think while any individual may choose to act accordingly as one see fit and face the consequences if neccessary, we need to be careful not to place our Association in being into a position where no official agencies would want to be associated with. It'll not do us any good.

If as individuals, we can talk louder than the association,
then my choice is obvious.

Everyone of us thought that if we form an association,
our voices will be louder and could be heard clearer.

If as an association, if we are afraid of this and afraid of that,
than we have fail to carry out the moral duty we undertook
to make fly fishing legal in Singapore for the local fly fishers,
if we have a fly fishing club where members are not allowed to fish.

A bit of ridiculous, looking at it.

As an individual, I can fly fish anywhere I want, and face the consequences of course as an individual.
If I am afraid that nobody will talk to me just because I fish illegally,
then it is very sad, because a lot of us would not have people talking with us.

I think if the agencies want to talk, they will talk.
If they don't want to talk, they won't.
It will not be because we fly fish at nz, wh etc.

But to form a fly fishing club where members are not allow to fly fish is really very ridiculous.

shadowcaster said:

Its a fine, and sometime invisible line. we need to distinguish the difference between individual choice and the choice of the collective community of fly fishers.

At the moment, any one carrying a fly rod is a fly fisherman.
It doesn't matter if he is one of those who is looking to help start the club/association.
It doesn't matter that he is not aware of what the association want the members to do.
We are but a few individuals.
There are many more fly fishers out there who haven't heard of us.
And they are fishing everywhere because they are facing the same problem.........getting chased away by rangers from the legal spots.

Maybe I'lll start a thread and put it to a vote.
So that we can confirm that it is not the choice of one or two
individuals who will decide if restrict the members of a fly fishing club from fishing.

[Qwek]

billyteo said:

Please don't believe a word I say in this OT.
I think I was drunk.
I was talking cock thru my arse hole.

Whoa Billy,

For a moment i was worried. I must say that you are very long winded ;D no wonder Mr Lee always skipped his morning coffee.

Right now, i don't know what is the authorities take on flyfishing as a whole. Not referring to the rules regarding the legal grounds. Do they regard flyfishing as illegal, bad or what? I don't know the answer to that.

Let look at it in another light, like your chicken and egg issue. Think of Flyfishing as SEX, (Cookie is probably laughing his head off, for once somebody agree with him that Flyfishing is better than Sex!). As we all know that sex is both legal and illegal, depending on where the act is performed and with whom.

Having it 24/7 within closed doors and they don't bat an eye lid, but out in the open is another matter. Like the Geyland prowlers, we want more and with differnt kind (of fishes), with that they put all these fishes in a tank called Geyland so that all the activities can be monitored. The 24/7ers are happy, the fishes are happy, the pimps are happy and even the guys who issued the pink/green/*put a colour here* card are happy. Every thing and everyone are under control.

Now we have the Meimei on the sidewalk doing their trade within Geyland and outside, these fishes are more exotic and they want your flies. Like machos, we give it to them long rod, short rod, boron, fiberglass, two pieces, three pieces, four piece pieces, short cast, long cast, and even cane them too. Now the guys with the coloured cards are in a fix; "What the fcuk! I give them Geyland and they are over over the place" Can I give them Joo Chiat, No, the MP on the bicycle is not happy cos the residents there removed his saddle seat. He has a pain in his and he's now a pain in our. Aiyoyo. Let try another place, with the recent incidents, the ABC now become ABC and D (dangerous). NB, no disrespects to the grieving families of the two victims at LSR.

So now, they have a bunch of flies chuckers going after meimei all over the place. How do they handle it without loosing bicycle seats.

Now we got them a bicycle and without a seat. Let hope they find a seat soon before Mr Lee misses another coffee break.

billyteo said:

What moral high ground for repeat offenders?
Who are we to say we have higher morals just because
the MP meet up with us and blessed us with a place in his CC?

Let he who has not sin cast the first stone.

Cookie, Cookie! where are you! I think he like flyfishing better than sex. Maybe we should hand him the stone. ;D ;D ;D

We engage the MP to halp us find the missing seat. Having the MP's help do not made us greater than the other fishing communities, we just want the ride to be safer for all, the anglers, the parks users and of course the meimei.

Billy, the cuppa is on you.

Cheers
Qwek

[BillyTeo]

qwek said:

Like the Geyland prowlers, we want more and with differnt kind (of fishes), with that they put all these fishes in a tank called Geyland so that all the activities can be monitored..........
...... Can I give them Joo Chiat, Cookie, Cookie! where are you! I think he like flyfishing better than sex. Maybe we should hand him the stone. ;D ;D ;D

Muahahahahaha ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Thanks Qwek for the laugh.

Okay now even the meimei's got an unofficial licence
to practise something our would-be club committee members
would call immoral.

As a matter of fact, if they also brand fly fishing as immoral
and they can give us an unofficial licence to fly fish,
I'll take it anytime.

I speak for myself, but a lot of guys here would want to take it too, moral or immoral.

[awjimmy]

Hi all,

I like kuan's idea ...

For example. say we adopt NZ, we should have our safety system put up, have the PUB/Nparks roadshow, volunteer to prepare a sign ' this water is for flyfishing only under these rules:.... A community project by CC PUB & Nparks ', volunteer to contact PUB when we fish, prepare to start improving the water like clearing grass and cleaning up, etc.

To even start, Billy & all, IMHO, the forum need to identify key personal that can take up the individual positions of the forming association.

Then the founding members has to set aside to discuss the major differences & lay out the key directions on where this club is steering.

As for the members & the vow of celibacy, it's tough to enforce the vision onto the membership... IMHO, the vow of celibacy should be taken not lightly by the EXCO as they represents the club & knows well where the vision of the club lies.

As for ordinary membership... it's going to be tough to enforce the no fly fishing celibacy vow... Logically speaking... Which fly newbie will want to willing join a flyfishing club & yet have to abstain from fly fishing ? Beside, SG still got quite some coastal area that we can still whip our gears without getting any rangers to tap our shoulders, right ?

Give our MP a chance, let those who have leaded the white papers araise, settle the differences & form the back bone of the new club along with TY's constitution. It is still just a seed yet.

Cheer up folks. ~ Jim.

[BillyTeo]

awjimmy said:

To even start, Billy & all, IMHO, the forum need to identify key personal that can take up the individual positions of the forming association.

And my choice of these key people are
Qwek
Kuan
Uncle Wong
Tan Yik
Alberto
Yu Hock
Amin
Jimboz
Jimmy Aw

awjimmy said:

Then the founding members has to set aside to discuss the major differences & lay out the key directions on where this club is steering.

As long as the objective is the same,
how we reach there is no problem........as long as we can fly fish on the way.

awjimmy said:

As for the members & the vow of celibacy, it's tough to enforce the vision onto the membership... IMHO, the vow of celibacy should be taken not lightly by the EXCO as they represents the club & knows well where the vision of the club lies.

As for ordinary membership... it's going to be tough to enforce the no fly fishing celibacy vow... Logically speaking... Which fly newbie will want to willing join a flyfishing club & yet have to abstain from fly fishing ?

Precisely sir.
No fly fisherman would join a club to prevent them from fly fishing.

If they give us seven trees AND white house,
(like the way they give semakau to SFAS)
then we can consider not fly fishing at the other places.
Of course until the membership grew to large and we need more areas.

We will have plenty of places to fish when the marina project is completed.
The NParks and PUB will have their hands full.
There won't be enough enforcement to patrol the whole place
to stop people from fishing illegally.
The only way is for them to issue licences and hope the licenced people follow tghe rules.

Mark my words.
We'll wait and see.

awjimmy said:

Give our MP a chance, let those who have leaded the white papers araise, settle the differences & form the back bone of the new club along with TY's constitution. It is still just a seed yet.

Our objective is clear to all Jimmy.
The only difference is we chosed to debate everything openly.
We are transparent in everything we do.

Including this little debate as to whether we stop fishing or
carrying on fishing.
The guys who wanted to stop fishing is doing it with a heavy heart, and very reluctantly.(If I sense it correctly)
But if it is necessary, I will join them and stop fishing
it it really make sense and it will really speed up the
process of reaching our objective.
Why not?
I'll do what it will take to get what we set out to do done.

The little debate is to make our views transparent as a respect to all the members involved.

And I am pretty sure too, if needed be, a lot more of us will
stand behind the guys who want to stop, and stop fishing
if it will benefit the club.

Cheerio

[Qwek]

billyteo said:

And my choice of these key people are
Qwek
Kuan
Uncle Wong
Tan Yik
Alberto
Yu Hock
Amin
Jimboz
Jimmy Aw

I think there are flyfishos out more qualified and experienced than me for the post... but you have my full support!

billyteo said:

Our objective is clear to all Jimmy.
The only difference is we chosed to debate everything openly.
We are transparent in everything we do.

Including this little debate as to whether we stop fishing or
carrying on fishing...

The little debate is to make our views transparent as a respect to all the members involved.

Cheerio

Well just to let you know that our forum including this debate is read by them too.

Cheers
Qwek

[reuben]

Hi guys,
Despite not fishing for the past 6 or 7 months, I attended the meeting with the MP straight after touch-down from a 12-hour flight.I just have to support TY and the rest for putting so much time and effort to set-up this meeting for our "united" vision to make our waters a legal and fishable red-dot.
I left the meeting with a bitter after-taste......to set a good example, we have to stop " not- totally-legal" fly-fishing. After reading the subsequent posts, this issue of whether we, if we form/join the association, should we or should we not continue with our present fishing practices. As what TY has mentioned.......to set-up this club, sacrifices must be made. The credibility of this club/association depends on our INTEGRITY. This is a BIG word, and as rational blokes, we should abide by it. Whether you want to continue with your present fishing practices is completely up to you....nobody can stop you. But if we wish to see a more transparent fishing and to attain the objectives as laid out during the meeting, sacrifices WILL have to be made. We may not see the fruits of our quest in this time frame, but we will be laying the foundation for the next generation of fishos. If we feel that to give up what we love to do now is NOT good enough a sacrifice for the betterment of the future community, IMHO, I think we should stop now....and continue with what we have been doing before. We wish to set-up this club/ association so that we can be "heard" and hopefully, contribute to, and promote ALL the objectives as laid out during the MP meeting. No easy task.... But we must, if we want to establish our objectives. We all stole apples form our neighbours before, but once we decide to join the police force, we should stop doing so. So....Shoot me.

Reuben

[BillyTeo]

reuben said:

.......to set-up this club, sacrifices must be made. ....... and as rational blokes, So....Shoot me.

Okay, let us say we decided to form the club refrain from fly fishing
at the reservoirs because it will be illegal.
So when recruiting members and talking with the residents,
a scenerio like this will follow.........

Resident: What is this club?

You: Oh it is a fly fishing club.

Resident: How do I join?

You: Fill up the form and pay $xx and you are a member.

So the guy fill up the form and and pay his money.....

New member: So when do I start fly fishing?

You: You can't fish yet.

New member: Why?

You: Because sacrifices have to be made and we need moral authority to tell people who fish illegally not to do it.
As a new member you are to abide by the rules in the constitution.

New member: Why like that?

You: Because fly fishing in the reservoirs is still illegal.

New member: Then why you ask me to join in your illegal activity?

You: Because we need more members for the gahmen to hear our voices.

New member: (Tulan liow) Wah lan eh..... you mean you guys are peddling illegal activity and some more dare to collect member ship fees............&^%$#@*

You: Sir, we need people who can make sacrifices so that our younger generations can see the fruit of our labour.

New member: I am going to bring this case to CASE to settle,
if you do not give me back my membership fees...... you are a con man.

You: Please mind you words and be civilise.

Ex-New member: WHAT?!!!! civilised??
You ask me to join your fly fishing club, and I cannot even fish.
Tell me why I must pay money so that I cannot fly fish.

If I don't want to fly fish, I will don't fly fish by myself.
I want to fly fish , that is why I join your club to fly fish.

Why must I pay money for me not to fly fish?
What logic is this?

Pay money not to fish.....

You: Sir.....pleae let me explain....

Ex-New member: Somemore illegal fly fishing........how come you dare to ask people to join.
Wah! want to teach children to fly fishing some more.
Then you are teaching them to do illegal thing hor?
I better call the Straits Times to tell them about you club
It will make an interesting story.

You: ?? Please let me explain.

Ex-New member: *&^%$#@!$%^&**

[reuben]

I think there is no need for sacarsm here. What do we want? Have both sides of the fence? As far as we know, and correct me if I am wrong, there is no "NO FLYFISHING" banners at the legal fishing spots. As such, we can still promote our sport, till such time when everything comes through and when we can have access to more fishing areas. Some people probably think that we are shooting ourselves in the foot because we cannot continue to fish "illegally" if we we were to form this club. We will inform and educate the public that, at this stage, only designated areas are allowed to fish, and that everywhere else would be illegal. So the choice is theirs. But, one day we MIGHT be able to fish at more allocated areas if our quest comes through. Can we predict? A definate NO. But we have to start somewhere, if WE really wish to start. If we cannot forgo what we use to do now, and keep debating on so many "what-ifs", yet wanting to continue to fish at illegal areas, we will be doing TY and the rest who really wants this issue to go through a great disfavour. A leader leads by example. If you cannot, then don't. Go ahead with your present activities,go chionging till the cows come home, assume that the meeting to envision our quest never took place.